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	<title>Comments on: Bipartisanship is overrated</title>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f6a6bd5d0ce5a174fc54d40dc5389f29&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/b5442bcf63866bd.png" alt="Cujo359 Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Cujo359</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2009/10/bipartisanship-is-overrated/comment-page-1/#comment-8169</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f6a6bd5d0ce5a174fc54d40dc5389f29&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/b5442bcf63866bd.png" alt="Cujo359 Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Cujo359</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 06:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=706#comment-8169</guid>
		<description>On frequency of filibusters - the last two Congresses, in which the Republicans were the minority party in the Senate, saw &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://cujo359.blogspot.com/2009/04/mitch-mcconnell-stop-me-before-i.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a huge increase&lt;/A&gt; in filibusters. Claims that the two parties have behaved similarly are specious.

The thing to keep in mind when talking about the use of filibusters is that it requires strong party unity on the part of the minority. That simply doesn&#039;t exist nowadays in the Democratic Party. We&#039;ve been living that reality for the last few months on health care and the various finance measures. There are also very few real liberals (or progressives) in Congress. Many Democrats are conservatives who just couldn&#039;t meet the ideological purity requirements of the modern GOP. They tend to vote with Republicans. Democrats vs. Republicans isn&#039;t the only way to look at how power is distributed in DC. Progressives vs. conservatives is another way, and progressives are on the short end of that power lever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On frequency of filibusters &#8211; the last two Congresses, in which the Republicans were the minority party in the Senate, saw <a HREF="http://cujo359.blogspot.com/2009/04/mitch-mcconnell-stop-me-before-i.html" rel="nofollow">a huge increase</a> in filibusters. Claims that the two parties have behaved similarly are specious.</p>
<p>The thing to keep in mind when talking about the use of filibusters is that it requires strong party unity on the part of the minority. That simply doesn&#8217;t exist nowadays in the Democratic Party. We&#8217;ve been living that reality for the last few months on health care and the various finance measures. There are also very few real liberals (or progressives) in Congress. Many Democrats are conservatives who just couldn&#8217;t meet the ideological purity requirements of the modern GOP. They tend to vote with Republicans. Democrats vs. Republicans isn&#8217;t the only way to look at how power is distributed in DC. Progressives vs. conservatives is another way, and progressives are on the short end of that power lever.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/bfccdb62ed3a627.png" alt="Z Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Z</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2009/10/bipartisanship-is-overrated/comment-page-1/#comment-8049</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/bfccdb62ed3a627.png" alt="Z Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 01:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=706#comment-8049</guid>
		<description>1) Perhaps, if my memory/intuition is wrong and the Republicans would look like heroes during a filibuster. And I absolutely agree with you that some &quot;reforms&quot; to health care wouldn&#039;t be for the better, and that they&#039;d probably be championed as such regardless. But &quot;significant modifications in the bill in exchange for their votes&quot; is exactly the situation we&#039;re in now, and have been in for some time ... and we&#039;re still not getting their votes. I think it&#039;d be preferable to get the Republicans to put up or shut up.

2) Yes... and I think you might have misunderstood my point. I guess I&#039;d be less eager to encourage Republicans to force Democrats to make good on their filibuster threats, but only for personal preference reasons. I still think it would be &lt;em&gt;good strategy&lt;/em&gt; for Republicans to go ahead with 59 votes on something and make Democrats decide if it was really worth a real live filibuster. I think the political system as a whole is healthier if the mere possibility of a filibuster isn&#039;t enough to make it as good as real, regardless of which party is the majority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) Perhaps, if my memory/intuition is wrong and the Republicans would look like heroes during a filibuster. And I absolutely agree with you that some &#8220;reforms&#8221; to health care wouldn&#8217;t be for the better, and that they&#8217;d probably be championed as such regardless. But &#8220;significant modifications in the bill in exchange for their votes&#8221; is exactly the situation we&#8217;re in now, and have been in for some time &#8230; and we&#8217;re still not getting their votes. I think it&#8217;d be preferable to get the Republicans to put up or shut up.</p>
<p>2) Yes&#8230; and I think you might have misunderstood my point. I guess I&#8217;d be less eager to encourage Republicans to force Democrats to make good on their filibuster threats, but only for personal preference reasons. I still think it would be <em>good strategy</em> for Republicans to go ahead with 59 votes on something and make Democrats decide if it was really worth a real live filibuster. I think the political system as a whole is healthier if the mere possibility of a filibuster isn&#8217;t enough to make it as good as real, regardless of which party is the majority.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=d2b6a6e5b9e398b8424b98b6e0556a93&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/857053888d97dfd.png" alt="W.M. Irwin Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> W.M. Irwin</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2009/10/bipartisanship-is-overrated/comment-page-1/#comment-8042</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=d2b6a6e5b9e398b8424b98b6e0556a93&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/857053888d97dfd.png" alt="W.M. Irwin Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> W.M. Irwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=706#comment-8042</guid>
		<description>Two observations:

1) The longer a filibuster goes, the more likely that senators like Snowe or Lieberman will be able to push through significant modifications in the bill in exchange for their vote(s) to end debate.  No doubt that is why Lieberman said he would vote to open debate but not to end it.  Remember what happened earlier this year with that economic stimulus bill and how just three GOP senators were able to substantially change it. I am concerned about a bill which mandates that everyone purchase health insurance through monopolistic corporations that are exempt from the Federal Anti-Trust Act.  That would be a regression, not reform (in my opinion).  But if Snowe and Lieberman get their way, I&#039;m afraid that&#039;s what we&#039;ll finally get (with Obama signing it into law with much fanfare).

2) On the other hand, every time a party gets into power, they act as if they will always have it.  For now, having the votes to filibuster health care reform favors the minority Republicans.  But 3-4 years ago, the Democrats often employed this strategy to further their own agenda.  I guarantee you that the Dems will some day (hopefully later, not sooner) once again be in the minority and will gladly use the filibuster and all of the other delaying tactics that the GOP is currently taking advantage of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two observations:</p>
<p>1) The longer a filibuster goes, the more likely that senators like Snowe or Lieberman will be able to push through significant modifications in the bill in exchange for their vote(s) to end debate.  No doubt that is why Lieberman said he would vote to open debate but not to end it.  Remember what happened earlier this year with that economic stimulus bill and how just three GOP senators were able to substantially change it. I am concerned about a bill which mandates that everyone purchase health insurance through monopolistic corporations that are exempt from the Federal Anti-Trust Act.  That would be a regression, not reform (in my opinion).  But if Snowe and Lieberman get their way, I&#8217;m afraid that&#8217;s what we&#8217;ll finally get (with Obama signing it into law with much fanfare).</p>
<p>2) On the other hand, every time a party gets into power, they act as if they will always have it.  For now, having the votes to filibuster health care reform favors the minority Republicans.  But 3-4 years ago, the Democrats often employed this strategy to further their own agenda.  I guarantee you that the Dems will some day (hopefully later, not sooner) once again be in the minority and will gladly use the filibuster and all of the other delaying tactics that the GOP is currently taking advantage of.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/bfccdb62ed3a627.png" alt="Z Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Z</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2009/10/bipartisanship-is-overrated/comment-page-1/#comment-8028</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/bfccdb62ed3a627.png" alt="Z Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Political cover? If that&#039;s true, it&#039;s terrifically misguided. Enough prominent Democrats have gone on the record about how essential it is that we pass this bill, what a marvelous thing it would be for the country to have this legislation, etc. etc. that I think Democrats will be seen as bearing sole blame even if one or two Republican senators end up voting for it. And really, would Olympia Snowe&#039;s vote really make the Republicans equally able to take the blame, or to take the credit if/when turns out splendidly? I think not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Political cover? If that&#8217;s true, it&#8217;s terrifically misguided. Enough prominent Democrats have gone on the record about how essential it is that we pass this bill, what a marvelous thing it would be for the country to have this legislation, etc. etc. that I think Democrats will be seen as bearing sole blame even if one or two Republican senators end up voting for it. And really, would Olympia Snowe&#8217;s vote really make the Republicans equally able to take the blame, or to take the credit if/when turns out splendidly? I think not.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=eb9e31136b2ef3a2a720cb9afd94d349&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/1c1fede3880f8af.png" alt="Mike at The Big Stick Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Mike at The Big Stick</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2009/10/bipartisanship-is-overrated/comment-page-1/#comment-8023</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=eb9e31136b2ef3a2a720cb9afd94d349&#38;size=48&#38;default=http://www.thoughtcounts.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-identicon/identicon/1c1fede3880f8af.png" alt="Mike at The Big Stick Identicon Icon" height="48" width="48" /> Mike at The Big Stick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=706#comment-8023</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re missing one key point here: the desire for bipartisanship from the Left is partially about breaking the fillibuster, but it&#039;s also about political cover. The more Republicans you have on board, the less your party can bear sole blame if the bill fails. It&#039;s mostly about that. Right now we have both sides willing to entrench their positions. The Left really believes their bill will work and are willing to press for a vote. The Right really believes it will fail and they are willing to take the risk of being on the No side. I think they just need to let it go through and let the chips fall where they may.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re missing one key point here: the desire for bipartisanship from the Left is partially about breaking the fillibuster, but it&#8217;s also about political cover. The more Republicans you have on board, the less your party can bear sole blame if the bill fails. It&#8217;s mostly about that. Right now we have both sides willing to entrench their positions. The Left really believes their bill will work and are willing to press for a vote. The Right really believes it will fail and they are willing to take the risk of being on the No side. I think they just need to let it go through and let the chips fall where they may.</p>
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