I’m happy to use the word “defer,” by the way, instead of “submit,” but I should point out that “submission” is the word the radio transcript used. It’s the language in which they chose to describe their own beliefs.

You wrote: “If the women do it voluntarily though, I see no harm in it.” I think that’s just the issue. How voluntary is it for these women? It’s not about whether they believe their husband to be well-informed and fair in his decision-making; they’re not analyzing the situation and picking the best course of action for the circumstances. It’s about how God wants them to behave at all times. Maybe you’re okay with the conclusion that following God’s will is voluntary (though I don’t think that’d be the standard interpretation) but I doubt the truth of such a premise for people in very religious communities. People die refusing basic medical treatment because of pressures from their religious community. Perhaps they can technically make a choice between following their deity’s commands or displeasing that omnipotent deity and facing the consequences… but in effect, there is only one option.

It can be valuable to let go and allow a loved one to take the lead. That’s not what I take issue with. “Choosing your battles carefully,” what you’re arguing for, is different from being categorically submissive (or deferential). We could take your story about your daughter as an example. That is a really touching story. I assume, however, that if you were swerving around on the road or if you were falling asleep, or if you were otherwise incapable of driving in some way apparent to a 7-year-old, you would want her to speak up — both for her safety and yours. If she were at least 16 and licensed, I expect you’d even want her to offer to drive and let you rest, and to insist that she drive if you tried to refuse but were clearly incapable of driving safely. I’m not a parent myself, though I hope to be someday, and I’d want to teach my children to protect themselves like that. Trust is beautiful and inspirational, but in the event that it has to some degree been misplaced, we need to be able to look past it and solve the problem at hand. Otherwise… are we to view a tragic car accident as simply God’s will?

You’re right that some part of this is hard for me as a nonbeliever to understand. My inability to understand it, though, is a big part of why I am a nonbeliever. I’m not okay with putting reason in a secondary role, so I don’t like to believe arbitrary things with no proof behind them… and I’m disinclined to see belief-without-proof, or faith, as virtuous. I realize people do have religious beliefs that sound irrational to me. I’m over that. What blows me away is when those religious beliefs lead people to do things that are detrimental to themselves. Theological debates are complex, and there’s no way to prove any one side right or wrong… but some things are simple. “Don’t kowtow to an abusive spouse” should be one of them. It worries me when religion gets in the way of people making healthy and safe decisions for their own well-being.

I guess the first thing to say is that I think as an atheist it’s going to be really hard for you to accept the reasoning behind the whole notion you are discussing. A big part of this idea is based in a Belief that there is a God and he can be a powerful force in our lives. You did a thorough job of reasoning through some of the drawbacks to wifely ‘submissiveness’ and I respect your reservations, but the problem is that when we are talking about the role of a higher power in our lives, Reason plays a secondary role to Faith.

So, the notion of a wife ‘submitting’ to her husband… First, let me say that maybe a better way to come at his is to replace ‘submissive’ with ‘deference’. Submissive is a pretty charged word and I don’t think it accurately describes the teachings on this idea. Second, let me say that in my own marriage, the ‘submissiveness’ or ‘deference’ is reciprocal. A strong couple compliments one another so in our house my wife is the leader on issues with the kids and the day-to-day parts of our finances, while I am the leader with discussions about our house and our long-term finances. In issues where discussions reach a stalemate, the natural leader casts the tie-breaking vote. It is our belief that we recognize God-given or acquired skills in one another and by deferring to the other’s judgment we are trusting that God will guide them. So we are coming at things from a slightly different angle.

In couples where the wife submits to the husband completely, you have to understand that the wives do not see it as actually submitting to the husband…but to God. They trust that the husband will see their subservience as a motivator to listen closely to what God is telling him. Essentially, they are dumping a lot of responsibility on him and praying that will sharpen his focus. An analogy I would make is this: When my daughter was young, maybe 6 or 7 I took her on a three-day trip to Tennesse. We drove maybe 500 miles and did all sorts of fun stuff. At one point we were driving along and she was engrossed in a book or something. I thought to myself, this child has placed all her trust in me. This car is hurling down the road at 70 mph and she doesn’t have a care in the world. She trusts that her daddy will protect her by driving this car safely. It may not have even been a conscious trust, but it was still there. That trust was quite sobering. It’s the kind of trust that makes you put two hands on the wheel and ease off the gas a little bit. THAT is what the wife in these marriages hopes will happen.

If the husband is listening to God and following his will, the wife believes that God is guiding them, not the husband. He is just the middle-man, sort of like a priest in the Catholic church. I suppose you could say, why can’t the woman be the one that God speaks through? That’s a good question, and I can only answer it by saying that this is a old bastion of society that is hanging around. If the women do it voluntarily though, I see no harm in it.

You seem to be really focused on the notion that the husband may make mistakes and how tragic it would be for the woman to not voice her opinion. I will also say that sort of attitude can destroy a marriage, even in a marriage of non-believers and non-submissiveness. Often the best gift we can give ourselves is the gift of letting go of certain things. The best advice any married couple can receive is to choose their battles very carefully. In the case of a submissive wife, believe me, there are ways they can let their heart and mind be known without taking over. Also, when mistakes ARE made, you have to remember again that in the mind of the wife, this may be God testing them or leading them in a different direction. That trust in God, even when we falter, is a huge part of Faith. Again, that may be the point where it becomes hard for a non-believer to understand.