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	<title>Comments on: Why we learn math</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/</link>
	<description>critical analysis and interesting ideas</description>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=348cdec5918210f9960f68325118cf5b.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F348cdec5918210f99.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  pissedoffteacher</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/comment-page-1/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=348cdec5918210f9960f68325118cf5b.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F348cdec5918210f99.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> pissedoffteacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=54#comment-162</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been saying the exact same thing for years, sadly to people who teach Shakespeare and world history.  There is a prejudice against math by many educators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been saying the exact same thing for years, sadly to people who teach Shakespeare and world history.  There is a prejudice against math by many educators.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  A</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/comment-page-1/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=54#comment-106</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I&#039;ve never found those attempts at proving math is useful really even accomplish that very limited goal. The applications they give are always cartoonishly simplified.

Once, when I was teaching a tenth grade class and got the &quot;How is this useful?&quot; question, I gave the quick list of some places where the topic came up, but then said something to the effect of &quot;Really, you can&#039;t understand exactly how this will be applied right now. Remember when you were in 3rd grade, and they explained how fractions are useful because you can make change and count parts of pizzas? That was true, but you now use fractions all the time without thinking about it. Every time we graph a function, we assume it is continuous, and that makes no sense without fractional values.&quot; They actually took this pretty well and seemed to find it a satisfying answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;ve never found those attempts at proving math is useful really even accomplish that very limited goal. The applications they give are always cartoonishly simplified.</p>
<p>Once, when I was teaching a tenth grade class and got the &#8220;How is this useful?&#8221; question, I gave the quick list of some places where the topic came up, but then said something to the effect of &#8220;Really, you can&#8217;t understand exactly how this will be applied right now. Remember when you were in 3rd grade, and they explained how fractions are useful because you can make change and count parts of pizzas? That was true, but you now use fractions all the time without thinking about it. Every time we graph a function, we assume it is continuous, and that makes no sense without fractional values.&#8221; They actually took this pretty well and seemed to find it a satisfying answer.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=03d5ab50ed7c11c8c8750ad3af8beff8.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F03d5ab50ed7c11c8c.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Jon Ingram</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=03d5ab50ed7c11c8c8750ad3af8beff8.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F03d5ab50ed7c11c8c.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Jon Ingram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=54#comment-104</guid>
		<description>Interesting article. I particularly agree with this:

&lt;i&gt;If math can be taught as something that’s interesting, rather than as something that’s useful, it changes the way students look at it.&lt;/i&gt;

There is a big push in UK schools at the moment for a &#039;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/secondary/framework/maths/sgs/fm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;functional mathematics&lt;/a&gt;&#039; curriculum as an alternative for weaker students to standard GCSEs, which seems predicated on the belief that weak students will only be interested in maths that is useful in everyday life (see the link for an incredible amount of government nonsense-speak on this topic). 

I think you&#039;ve identified several ways in which this is a very bad idea. 

An equally bad trend is the need to assert that &#039;Maths is Cool&#039;. As Rob Eastaway pointed out at in a keynote talk at a conference I attended recently, saying that something &#039;is cool&#039; or &#039;is fun&#039; does not automatically make it so. If we substitute &#039;train spotting&#039; for &#039;maths&#039; in the assertions, we can see how many students approach what we say!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article. I particularly agree with this:</p>
<p><i>If math can be taught as something that’s interesting, rather than as something that’s useful, it changes the way students look at it.</i></p>
<p>There is a big push in UK schools at the moment for a &#8216;<a href="http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/secondary/framework/maths/sgs/fm" rel="nofollow">functional mathematics</a>&#8216; curriculum as an alternative for weaker students to standard GCSEs, which seems predicated on the belief that weak students will only be interested in maths that is useful in everyday life (see the link for an incredible amount of government nonsense-speak on this topic). </p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve identified several ways in which this is a very bad idea. </p>
<p>An equally bad trend is the need to assert that &#8216;Maths is Cool&#8217;. As Rob Eastaway pointed out at in a keynote talk at a conference I attended recently, saying that something &#8216;is cool&#8217; or &#8216;is fun&#8217; does not automatically make it so. If we substitute &#8216;train spotting&#8217; for &#8216;maths&#8217; in the assertions, we can see how many students approach what we say!</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  A</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/comment-page-1/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ve seen the Lockhart article before, and I also have very mixed feelings on it. I don&#039;t really have any more teaching experience than you, but I do agree that some students like the more straightforward computation. I would never advocate totally removing it - it&#039;s the part of math that has the most application to other fields and is definitely necessary.  I just think we have to make clear what real math is.  Those kids who enjoy the computation should be encouraged, but it&#039;s the kids who enjoy the more abstract stuff that are the most promising math students.  That stuff also earns math a lot more respect from those in other fields than the mindless computation does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen the Lockhart article before, and I also have very mixed feelings on it. I don&#8217;t really have any more teaching experience than you, but I do agree that some students like the more straightforward computation. I would never advocate totally removing it &#8211; it&#8217;s the part of math that has the most application to other fields and is definitely necessary.  I just think we have to make clear what real math is.  Those kids who enjoy the computation should be encouraged, but it&#8217;s the kids who enjoy the more abstract stuff that are the most promising math students.  That stuff also earns math a lot more respect from those in other fields than the mindless computation does.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=cf664a03c1c7308df4efbdea50ad441b.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fcf664a03c1c7308df.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Sam Shah</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/comment-page-1/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=cf664a03c1c7308df4efbdea50ad441b.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fcf664a03c1c7308df.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Sam Shah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=54#comment-80</guid>
		<description>You took the words right out of my mouth. I have been drafting something on the topic for my blog, but your views are so similar (instead of Shakespeare I was using Chaucer, ha!) that the need isn&#039;t there anymore. 

Huzzah. 

The one thing I think might be worth commenting on is this: &quot;Anyone who’s ever taken proof-based math in college knows that mathematicians don’t spend their days doing the stuff that’s taught in high school.&quot; Yes, two column geometry proofs are the best example. 

However you also say &quot;This kind of open-ended, puzzle-like problem is a lot more fun to do, and a much better way to show students what math is really like, than the computational topics that take up the current standard curriculum.&quot; Which I agree with, to a point. I&#039;m a new teacher, so maybe I&#039;m totally off base, but there are a lot of students who need the structure of those computational topics. The drilling of the basics. Very specific types of learners find this open-ended environment fruitful. I think that some sort of thought-out mixture of the two is probably the way to go.

You might be interested in reading this (which I sort of disagree with, but it is on the theme of your post) if you haven&#039;t yet: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You took the words right out of my mouth. I have been drafting something on the topic for my blog, but your views are so similar (instead of Shakespeare I was using Chaucer, ha!) that the need isn&#8217;t there anymore. </p>
<p>Huzzah. </p>
<p>The one thing I think might be worth commenting on is this: &#8220;Anyone who’s ever taken proof-based math in college knows that mathematicians don’t spend their days doing the stuff that’s taught in high school.&#8221; Yes, two column geometry proofs are the best example. </p>
<p>However you also say &#8220;This kind of open-ended, puzzle-like problem is a lot more fun to do, and a much better way to show students what math is really like, than the computational topics that take up the current standard curriculum.&#8221; Which I agree with, to a point. I&#8217;m a new teacher, so maybe I&#8217;m totally off base, but there are a lot of students who need the structure of those computational topics. The drilling of the basics. Very specific types of learners find this open-ended environment fruitful. I think that some sort of thought-out mixture of the two is probably the way to go.</p>
<p>You might be interested in reading this (which I sort of disagree with, but it is on the theme of your post) if you haven&#8217;t yet: <a href="http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf</a></p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fd41d8cd98f00b204e.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  It&#8217;s the Thought that Counts &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Carnival of Mathematics #38</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/08/why-we-learn-math/comment-page-1/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fd41d8cd98f00b204e.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> It&#8217;s the Thought that Counts &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Carnival of Mathematics #38</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=54#comment-79</guid>
		<description>[...] 38th edition of the Carnival of Mathematics went up at Catsynth on Friday. It includes A&#8217;s recent post about typical math teachers&#8217; efforts to make their classes seem relevant to students. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 38th edition of the Carnival of Mathematics went up at Catsynth on Friday. It includes A&#8217;s recent post about typical math teachers&#8217; efforts to make their classes seem relevant to students. [...]</p>
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