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	<title>Comments on: Right to bear arms?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/</link>
	<description>critical analysis and interesting ideas</description>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Progressive Conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Progressive Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I actually prefer SCOTUS defining issues like this. I think guns are one issue that will always reflect an ignorance of the populace when left to a referendum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually prefer SCOTUS defining issues like this. I think guns are one issue that will always reflect an ignorance of the populace when left to a referendum.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  A</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Well, people disagree over how broadly to interpret it and what level of gun control is constitutional.  I&#039;m not taking a stance on that here.  What I am saying is that whatever gun control it does ban, we shouldn&#039;t (constitutionally) ban.  If the ban doesn&#039;t meet the criteria I discussed in the post (or maybe there are other reasons I left out), then we should decide the issue democratically through the ballot box.  I&#039;m not trying to argue that gun control is good or bad, just that it should be decided by public opinion like every other policy issue, rather than by judicial fiat, which is exactly what would happen if we repeal the amendment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, people disagree over how broadly to interpret it and what level of gun control is constitutional.  I&#8217;m not taking a stance on that here.  What I am saying is that whatever gun control it does ban, we shouldn&#8217;t (constitutionally) ban.  If the ban doesn&#8217;t meet the criteria I discussed in the post (or maybe there are other reasons I left out), then we should decide the issue democratically through the ballot box.  I&#8217;m not trying to argue that gun control is good or bad, just that it should be decided by public opinion like every other policy issue, rather than by judicial fiat, which is exactly what would happen if we repeal the amendment.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Progressive Conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Progressive Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Maybe the problem is that I don&#039;t understand your arguement that, &lt;i&gt;&quot;To whatever extent it’s actually doing anything, it’s preventing democratic outcomes.  We should get rid of it and deal with the real issues here.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the problem is that I don&#8217;t understand your arguement that, <i>&#8220;To whatever extent it’s actually doing anything, it’s preventing democratic outcomes.  We should get rid of it and deal with the real issues here.&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  A</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Yes, I am including western Europe in my examples, though other countries like Japan also work.  I fully recognize that you can find both democracies and dictatorships with and without substantial private ownership of weapons.  That, though, is exactly my point.

If private ownership of guns were necessary to prevent tyranny, it would be very rare to find a democracy still existing without gun ownership.  This clearly isn’t the case.  If, however, gun ownership has nothing to do with whether the government becomes tyrannical, you could easily find whatever combination of gun ownership and government type that you wanted.

I am in no way claiming that gun ownership is bad for democracy.  I’m just claiming it isn’t good either. Gun control might be a bad idea, but not because it would lead to tyranny, and the other reasons don&#039;t seem like things that rise to the level of constitutional protection.

And yes, the cultures are different.  Guns are much more culturally important to Americans than to the Japanese, and that’s a good argument for the US having looser gun control than Japan.  I just don’t think cultural importance qualifies something for constitutional protection.  Baseball is also culturally important.  It’d be idiotic to ban it.  However, if for whatever reason a majority of Americans felt they were safer without it, I wouldn’t want the courts trying to overrule them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I am including western Europe in my examples, though other countries like Japan also work.  I fully recognize that you can find both democracies and dictatorships with and without substantial private ownership of weapons.  That, though, is exactly my point.</p>
<p>If private ownership of guns were necessary to prevent tyranny, it would be very rare to find a democracy still existing without gun ownership.  This clearly isn’t the case.  If, however, gun ownership has nothing to do with whether the government becomes tyrannical, you could easily find whatever combination of gun ownership and government type that you wanted.</p>
<p>I am in no way claiming that gun ownership is bad for democracy.  I’m just claiming it isn’t good either. Gun control might be a bad idea, but not because it would lead to tyranny, and the other reasons don&#8217;t seem like things that rise to the level of constitutional protection.</p>
<p>And yes, the cultures are different.  Guns are much more culturally important to Americans than to the Japanese, and that’s a good argument for the US having looser gun control than Japan.  I just don’t think cultural importance qualifies something for constitutional protection.  Baseball is also culturally important.  It’d be idiotic to ban it.  However, if for whatever reason a majority of Americans felt they were safer without it, I wouldn’t want the courts trying to overrule them.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Progressive Conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Progressive Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-38</guid>
		<description>Yes - I saw that originally, though I don&#039;t agree with his assesment. I could also name many countries where an unarmed population was taken advantage of. It cuts both ways. 

I assume he is also basing his point on western Europe. I do not think that our two cultures are as similar as some would liek us to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; I saw that originally, though I don&#8217;t agree with his assesment. I could also name many countries where an unarmed population was taken advantage of. It cuts both ways. </p>
<p>I assume he is also basing his point on western Europe. I do not think that our two cultures are as similar as some would liek us to believe.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F8572ca0c7489aa87b.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Z</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F8572ca0c7489aa87b.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-36</guid>
		<description>I believe A already responded to that issue in his original post, when he wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;An unarmed populace and/or a standing army were considered precursors to tyranny, but we’ve since seen a plethora of totally functioning democracies that have very strict gun control laws.  Moreover, in US history there is no evidence that this works.  An armed revolt is totally contrary to the rule of law, and those who resort to it tend to do so more because of displeasure with the law than because they were treated unjustly by it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;m sure he&#039;d be happy to discuss this point further if you disagree with it, but I thought for now I&#039;d just point it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe A already responded to that issue in his original post, when he wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>An unarmed populace and/or a standing army were considered precursors to tyranny, but we’ve since seen a plethora of totally functioning democracies that have very strict gun control laws.  Moreover, in US history there is no evidence that this works.  An armed revolt is totally contrary to the rule of law, and those who resort to it tend to do so more because of displeasure with the law than because they were treated unjustly by it.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;d be happy to discuss this point further if you disagree with it, but I thought for now I&#8217;d just point it out.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Progressive Conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Progressive Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-34</guid>
		<description>I think the Founding Fathers made it clear that they believed an armed population was vital to preventing the tyranny of the goverment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Founding Fathers made it clear that they believed an armed population was vital to preventing the tyranny of the goverment.</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F8572ca0c7489aa87b.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Z</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=8572ca0c7489aa87b9e3e0092a9a6b87.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2F8572ca0c7489aa87b.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 05:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Progressive Conservative: That&#039;s a fair point, but at best it&#039;s an argument for why guns shouldn&#039;t be banned. There are lots of things it would be foolish to ban, though -- light bulbs, gardening trowels, home alarm systems. Is there a reason that guns deserve special constitutional protection from any ownership restrictions whatsoever?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Progressive Conservative: That&#8217;s a fair point, but at best it&#8217;s an argument for why guns shouldn&#8217;t be banned. There are lots of things it would be foolish to ban, though &#8212; light bulbs, gardening trowels, home alarm systems. Is there a reason that guns deserve special constitutional protection from any ownership restrictions whatsoever?</p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  Progressive Conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=f70a488e71be5b0aeff12acd62222006.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Ff70a488e71be5b0ae.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> Progressive Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 03:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-32</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are 280 million firearms in private hands in America, and last year there were about 300,000 gun crimes. That means that at least 279,700,000 guns did nothing wrong.&quot; - Jim Kessler, Democracy Journal

&lt;a href=&quot;http://thebigstick.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/the-nra-and-assault-weapons/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Source&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are 280 million firearms in private hands in America, and last year there were about 300,000 gun crimes. That means that at least 279,700,000 guns did nothing wrong.&#8221; &#8211; Jim Kessler, Democracy Journal</p>
<p><a href="http://thebigstick.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/the-nra-and-assault-weapons/" rel="nofollow">Source</a></p>
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		<title><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' />By:  A</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtcounts.net/2008/06/right-to-bear-arms/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator><img class='wavatar' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=b7c503dd3dcfbfe6283c10874dbaaa07.jpg&amp;r=G&amp;s=60&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtcounts.net%2Fwp-content%2Fcache%2Fwavatars%2Fb7c503dd3dcfbfe62.png' width='60' height='60' alt='Wavatar' /> A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 03:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtcounts.net/?p=26#comment-20</guid>
		<description>My argument in no way relies on gun control being effective at keeping muggers from having guns, or even on the idea that gun control of any kind is good policy.  There are lots of dumb policies that aren’t banned by the constitution.  I believe in democracy, and that government policies should be decided by the people and their representatives.  I even believe that the voters have the right to implement dumb policies.  I believe there are some limits (like violating the fundamental rights of minorities) and that courts and constitutional prohibitions are meant to protect against those potential abuses.  If you have an argument as to why gun control constitutes such an abuse, I’d love to hear it.

For the sake of argument, I do think it is plausible that gun control could reduce the number of muggers with guns.  Guns aren&#039;t exactly something you can make in your basement.  You could easily mandate that manufacturers have to account for each gun, reporting the eventual owner (who would have to have legal permission to have it) or prove it was destroyed when not sold.  And, of course, the jail sentence for getting caught with an illegal gun would deter some people.  Obviously, many guns will get by, because of bribery, fraud, smuggling, etc., but it’d be a reduced number.  It would mean less accidental gun deaths, less armed muggers, but less well-defended mugging victims.  The question is just which effect will be greater.  That&#039;s a &lt;i&gt;policy&lt;/i&gt; decision, not a rights decision.  Whether gun control is a good idea could very well vary based on time period, region, etc.  That means it’s not a fundamentally illegitimate government act, and should be decided by a legislature.

Banning the practice of a religion is bad.  It’s unjust no matter what motivation the government had or how large a majority supports it.  It’s not a legitimate government action.  That’s the kind of thing the Bill of Rights exists to stop, and I don’t see how gun control falls in that category.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My argument in no way relies on gun control being effective at keeping muggers from having guns, or even on the idea that gun control of any kind is good policy.  There are lots of dumb policies that aren’t banned by the constitution.  I believe in democracy, and that government policies should be decided by the people and their representatives.  I even believe that the voters have the right to implement dumb policies.  I believe there are some limits (like violating the fundamental rights of minorities) and that courts and constitutional prohibitions are meant to protect against those potential abuses.  If you have an argument as to why gun control constitutes such an abuse, I’d love to hear it.</p>
<p>For the sake of argument, I do think it is plausible that gun control could reduce the number of muggers with guns.  Guns aren&#8217;t exactly something you can make in your basement.  You could easily mandate that manufacturers have to account for each gun, reporting the eventual owner (who would have to have legal permission to have it) or prove it was destroyed when not sold.  And, of course, the jail sentence for getting caught with an illegal gun would deter some people.  Obviously, many guns will get by, because of bribery, fraud, smuggling, etc., but it’d be a reduced number.  It would mean less accidental gun deaths, less armed muggers, but less well-defended mugging victims.  The question is just which effect will be greater.  That&#8217;s a <i>policy</i> decision, not a rights decision.  Whether gun control is a good idea could very well vary based on time period, region, etc.  That means it’s not a fundamentally illegitimate government act, and should be decided by a legislature.</p>
<p>Banning the practice of a religion is bad.  It’s unjust no matter what motivation the government had or how large a majority supports it.  It’s not a legitimate government action.  That’s the kind of thing the Bill of Rights exists to stop, and I don’t see how gun control falls in that category.</p>
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